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| cgTobi | ping | 01:50 |
|---|---|---|
| ShortWave | pong | 01:54 |
| ShortWave | 'sup tobi? | 01:54 |
| cgTobi | nothing....I'm bored | 01:54 |
| ShortWave | bummer | 01:55 |
| cgTobi | wanted to check if someone is around :) | 01:55 |
| cgTobi | how is it going | 01:55 |
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| cgTobi | ? | 01:55 |
| ShortWave | it's going | 01:55 |
| ShortWave | planning trips | 01:55 |
| scorp007 | hi | 01:55 |
| cgTobi | cool | 01:55 |
| cgTobi | hi scorp007 | 01:55 |
| ShortWave | hey scorp | 01:55 |
| ShortWave | plus I'm doing some Neqsus hacking | 01:55 |
| cgTobi | where to if you don't mind me asking? | 01:55 |
| ShortWave | I'm brainstorming my ass off here | 01:55 |
| ShortWave | The bahamas, and conneticut | 01:55 |
| cgTobi | cool. that reminds me that I could/should do something usefull too... but I don't feel like atm. I have a bit of a cold :/ | 01:56 |
| ShortWave | oh you should rest | 01:56 |
| scorp007 | hmm -- does anyone know how renderman catmull-clark Subdivision mesh works? I understand it smoothes out the polygons you pass, but does it interpolate the normals to make them smooth, too | 01:56 |
| scorp007 | ? | 01:56 |
| ShortWave | always rest when you have a cold, you get better faster | 01:56 |
| cgTobi | seperate trips that are, I guess | 01:56 |
| cgTobi | well, I have to work, though. But its quite calm atm | 01:57 |
| scorp007 | because what happens in my mesh, is that the normals looks exactly like they did on the un-smoothed mesh, with Subdiv on. | 01:57 |
| scorp007 | which gives it a very rigid look, even though the mesh is smooth | 01:57 |
| scorp007 | but when I add a "mesh smooth" modifier in 3ds max, and then render it, it looks much nicer. | 01:58 |
| scorp007 | and it looks as though the normals are incorrect in the pure subdiv surface... | 01:58 |
| ShortWave | hrm | 01:59 |
| scorp007 | note, this is with 3delight, so it's not a bug in aqsis or anything... | 01:59 |
| scorp007 | just wondering if I am using them incorrectly | 01:59 |
| ShortWave | ok so | 01:59 |
| ShortWave | Explain that first sentence | 01:59 |
| ShortWave | the "normals look exactly like they did" | 01:59 |
| *** cgTobi sets mode: +v scorp007 | 02:00 | |
| scorp007 | well, I would think that, since the polygons are smoothly interpolated, so should the normals, to reflect the new subdivision polygons | 02:00 |
| ShortWave | well | 02:00 |
| ShortWave | that's the question, really | 02:00 |
| scorp007 | yet they seem to look like the normals from the original PointsPolygons mesh | 02:00 |
| ShortWave | because there's no way to tell how it's exporting it | 02:01 |
| ShortWave | well | 02:01 |
| scorp007 | no, I am doing the exporting | 02:01 |
| ShortWave | how are you doing the exporting? | 02:01 |
| ShortWave | The question is... | 02:01 |
| ShortWave | when you export, are normals being exported when it's subdivided or not? | 02:01 |
| scorp007 | i.e. when I export the unsmoothed mesh I pass "PointsPolygons", and if I want a subdiv, I just substitute it with "SubdivisionMesh "catmull-clark"" | 02:01 |
| ShortWave | ah | 02:02 |
| scorp007 | no, the original mesh's normals, as it is only subdivided at render time. | 02:02 |
| ShortWave | and you say "you pass" | 02:02 |
| ShortWave | you mean you actually edit the file? | 02:02 |
| ShortWave | or you're writing an exporter? | 02:02 |
| scorp007 | well, I wrote the exporter... | 02:02 |
| ShortWave | Ok that's the question then | 02:02 |
| ShortWave | normal smoothing is one thing, subdivision is different | 02:03 |
| ShortWave | why it looks the same, I'm not so sure about...I'd need to see what you're doing | 02:04 |
| scorp007 | yeah, but I'd expect it to smooth the normals for me, as it does the mesh? | 02:04 |
| scorp007 | I can make some screenshots visualising the normals | 02:04 |
| ShortWave | The way I do it for Blender, I actually have two seperate procedures that I call if I'm using pointsPolygons vs. subdivision | 02:05 |
| scorp007 | and what is the difference between them? | 02:05 |
| scorp007 | I thought the only thing i needed to modify was the request | 02:06 |
| ShortWave | are you looking at any kind of creasing? | 02:07 |
| scorp007 | nope | 02:07 |
| ShortWave | how are you declaring N? | 02:07 |
| ShortWave | "facevarying normal"? | 02:07 |
| scorp007 | nope, only the basic "N" in this case. | 02:07 |
| ShortWave | ok so you're only doing the vertex normal one then | 02:08 |
| scorp007 | yep | 02:08 |
| * scorp007 is making some comparison shots | 02:08 | |
| ShortWave | well it seems I did it for a reason, but I can't remember why | 02:12 |
| ShortWave | ri.RiSubdivisionMesh("catmull-clark", nverts, vertids, tags, nargs, intargs, floatargs, params) | 02:12 |
| ShortWave | that's my call for subdiv messhes | 02:12 |
| scorp007 | here we go: http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6227/normalssmoothyb6.jpg | 02:12 |
| ShortWave | ri.RiPointsGeneralPolygons(nfaces*[1], nverts, vertids, params) | 02:12 |
| ShortWave | that's my pointsPolygons call | 02:13 |
| scorp007 | what language is this? | 02:13 |
| ShortWave | Python | 02:13 |
| ShortWave | and CgKit | 02:13 |
| scorp007 | hmm, so are you passing anything different in terms of normals to the two calls? | 02:14 |
| scorp007 | notice on the picture how the normals look the same on the first two images, but the last is much smoother. | 02:14 |
| scorp007 | yet it's not even a SubdivisionMesh at all | 02:14 |
| ShortWave | That's what I'm looking at now | 02:15 |
| scorp007 | brb, breakfast | 02:15 |
| scorp007 | (feel free to leave your thoughts here, I'll read when I get back) | 02:16 |
| ShortWave | hrm, well | 02:19 |
| ShortWave | doesn't seem like I do much different | 02:20 |
| scorp007 | back | 02:38 |
| scorp007 | I can give you the rib to try if you want | 02:40 |
| scorp007 | see what output you get | 02:40 |
| ShortWave | I don't know what good that would do | 02:40 |
| ShortWave | I'd actually want to see the exporter source code | 02:40 |
| ShortWave | tell the story better I'd think | 02:40 |
| scorp007 | well, perhaps to see if there are differences in the final result... | 02:41 |
| scorp007 | I can show you the maxscript that exports the normals, but I don't know how useful it will be | 02:41 |
| scorp007 | wow, rendering the result in aqsis looks way different | 02:42 |
| scorp007 | potentially buggy | 02:42 |
| scorp007 | essentially, what I do, is go through each vert, get its normals, and spit it out to the rib. | 02:43 |
| ShortWave | well that's what I do | 02:44 |
| ShortWave | I'd love to see the maxscript tho | 02:44 |
| scorp007 | http://rafb.net/p/uEfAHg66.html | 02:44 |
| ShortWave | hrm | 02:45 |
| scorp007 | I haven't actually rendered this with aqsis, as I have a debug build, and its very slow. I wouldn't mind seeing the output of the final render | 02:48 |
| scorp007 | but the incomplete results looked way off... | 02:49 |
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| scorp007 | hmm | 04:15 |
| scorp007 | anyone awake? | 04:36 |
| cgTobi | jupp | 04:53 |
| cgTobi | :) | 04:53 |
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| scorp007 | hi. I'm having some wierd rendering artifacts when rendering subdivision surfaces, as descired here: http://www.aqsis.org/xoops/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1436&start=0#forumpost7746 | 04:54 |
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| ShortWave | shoe me a wireframe | 05:08 |
| ShortWave | err | 05:08 |
| ShortWave | show me a wireframe | 05:08 |
| ShortWave | Those artifacts make me think you've got "extraordinary verts" going on | 05:09 |
| ShortWave | i.e. where you might have a vert with more than 4 edges coming into it | 05:09 |
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| scorp007 | http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1656/head1wirebb5.jpg | 05:11 |
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| cgTobi | prman renders are on their way | 05:11 |
| scorp007 | ok, cool :) | 05:12 |
| ShortWave | yup | 05:12 |
| ShortWave | that's your problem | 05:12 |
| scorp007 | hmm | 05:12 |
| scorp007 | what exactly? | 05:13 |
| ShortWave | ok, so compare your Aqsis renders to your wireframe | 05:13 |
| ShortWave | and note that everywhere there's an artifact | 05:13 |
| ShortWave | you've got a vert with 5 edges | 05:13 |
| cgTobi | pixie is wrong btw IMHO | 05:13 |
| ShortWave | for instance, at the corner of the eye | 05:13 |
| ShortWave | yeah, pixie looks wrong | 05:13 |
| ShortWave | Too much smoothing or something | 05:14 |
| scorp007 | hmm? So I'm not allowed to have verts with 5 edges? | 05:14 |
| ShortWave | well technically | 05:14 |
| ShortWave | that's considered an "extraordinary vert" | 05:15 |
| ShortWave | subdivision surfaces need to be able to form a UV coordinate system | 05:15 |
| cgTobi | replied on the forum | 05:16 |
| scorp007 | hmm, PRMan looks just like 3delight :) | 05:17 |
| cgTobi | surprise surprise :) | 05:17 |
| scorp007 | heh | 05:17 |
| ShortWave | Geometrically, it seems that Aqsis is closer to 3Delight than pixie is. | 05:18 |
| scorp007 | then it definitely must be my user error | 05:18 |
| ShortWave | well at the moment | 05:18 |
| ShortWave | it's a modelling error | 05:18 |
| ShortWave | It's not technically a bug I don't think causing your issue | 05:19 |
| ShortWave | you might try getting rid of those extra edges | 05:19 |
| scorp007 | thats what I mean.. but damn.. it must be hard to have no verts with more or less than 4 edges | 05:19 |
| scorp007 | cgTobi, at MPC, do you guys usually use polygonal models in shots? | 05:20 |
| cgTobi | well, welcome to poly modeling land :D and wait 'till it gets to animate these polys | 05:20 |
| scorp007 | if so, did you happen to have a look at them? Were there any such problems like with my model? | 05:20 |
| ShortWave | yes | 05:21 |
| cgTobi | scorp007: I can't tell for sure, but I think most things are done with polys nowadays since its easier to model than nurbs | 05:21 |
| ShortWave | look at the corner of the eye | 05:21 |
| ShortWave | just wait, I'll show you what the issue is. | 05:22 |
| scorp007 | ShortWave, ok, looking. | 05:22 |
| cgTobi | scorp007: to be honest I never had a model on my screen for further inspection. | 05:22 |
| scorp007 | cgTobi, heh. I wonder if you're artists take extra care to ensure their meshes have no extraordinary verts... | 05:22 |
| scorp007 | s/you're/your/g | 05:23 |
| scorp007 | what if a vert has 3 edges? | 05:24 |
| cgTobi | There usually is always a way around it. But to be honest, I haven't modeled for quite a while now. | 05:27 |
| ShortWave | ok here you are | 05:27 |
| cgTobi | and I've never been an expert anyway | 05:27 |
| cgTobi | :) | 05:27 |
| ShortWave | http://www.stormwind-studios.com/Misc/SubDivExample.png | 05:28 |
| cgTobi | even though these arifacts shouldn't appear, I think | 05:29 |
| ShortWave | They shouldn't | 05:29 |
| ShortWave | but tcolgate explained it | 05:29 |
| scorp007 | ShortWave, ah, ok. I see the correlation | 05:30 |
| ShortWave | I noticed it with Neqsus and asked and he said "extraordinary verts. Aqsis wants to create a UV coordinate system, but can't. Other renderers allow it by smoothing it over, but we don't do that because <insert justification>" | 05:30 |
| cgTobi | IC | 05:31 |
| scorp007 | ShortWave, does it only happen with subdivision surfaces? And does it only happen with numEdges != 4 ? | 05:31 |
| ShortWave | that's what I hear | 05:32 |
| ShortWave | tho you nothing's stopping you from experimentation | 05:32 |
| scorp007 | well.. I want a clean render.. I'm resorting to mental ray for now, heh | 05:32 |
| ShortWave | I would presume that you have to have 4 edges for internal verts and 3 for edge verts (and of course 2 for corners) | 05:32 |
| scorp007 | it has nice SSS shaders | 05:32 |
| cgTobi | off home | 08:18 |
| cgTobi | cya | 08:18 |
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| renderguy | Afternoon all. | 12:03 |
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| renderguy | One for the logs: Just posted about our new framebuffer work on the blog, enjoy - http://aqsis.blogspot.com | 12:04 |
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| renderguy | Gotta shoot now, might be back later. | 12:05 |
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| c42f | Hi guys | 13:47 |
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| cgTobi | evening all | 22:43 |
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