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| *** cgTobi sets mode: +v Pseudonym | 00:24 | |
| cgTobi | hi Andrew | 00:24 |
|---|---|---|
| Pseudonym | G'day. | 00:24 |
| Pseudonym | How's things? | 00:24 |
| cgTobi | not bad, you? | 00:24 |
| Pseudonym | OK. | 00:25 |
| Pseudonym | Got my interview today. | 00:25 |
| Pseudonym | Which is cool. | 00:25 |
| cgTobi | cool | 00:25 |
| cgTobi | good luck for that | 00:26 |
| Pseudonym | Thanks. | 00:26 |
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| cgTobi | off to bed | 00:59 |
| cgTobi | cya | 00:59 |
| Pseudonym | Night. | 00:59 |
| cgTobi | and have a good day | 00:59 |
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| scorp007 | hi | 05:00 |
| scorp007 | have the selected students been announced yet? | 05:01 |
| Pseudonym | Doesn't look like it. | 05:15 |
| scorp007 | ok | 05:16 |
| Pseudonym | It's not the 11th everywhere yet. :-) | 05:16 |
| scorp007 | oh ok, heh | 05:17 |
| * scorp007 has just implemented stochastic sampling in his little renderer | 05:18 | |
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| Pseudonym | G'day. | 07:40 |
| pgregory | morning Andrew | 07:41 |
| Pseudonym | How's things? | 07:41 |
| pgregory | full of cold this morning, you? | 07:41 |
| Pseudonym | Quite pleasant. | 07:42 |
| Pseudonym | I had a job interview today, which is good. | 07:42 |
| Pseudonym | A friend of mine who works there said: Basically, they promised me they'd hire you. | 07:42 |
| Pseudonym | It just so happened that the guy who interviewed me is another friend. | 07:42 |
| pgregory | cool, can you say anything about the job? | 07:43 |
| Pseudonym | It's a media delivery thing. | 07:43 |
| Pseudonym | Not graphics, really. | 07:43 |
| Pseudonym | Can't really say anything more than that. | 07:44 |
| pgregory | good luck | 07:44 |
| Pseudonym | Thanks. | 07:45 |
| Pseudonym | The thing is, I still have to finish this project first. | 07:45 |
| Pseudonym | And I'm really not enjoying it. | 07:45 |
| pgregory | that's tough, focusing on something you don't like is difficult, especially when you know there is the potential for something better. | 07:47 |
| Pseudonym | Yeah. | 07:47 |
| Pseudonym | Still, they pay us the big bucks because we're professional. | 07:47 |
| pgregory | just trying to resolve a SoC duplication, prior to the final decision, feel I may have left it a little late. | 07:48 |
| Pseudonym | There's a duplication? | 07:49 |
| pgregory | yes, one of our top applicants has been assigned a mentor on KDE too. | 07:49 |
| Pseudonym | Ah. | 07:49 |
| Pseudonym | Crap. | 07:49 |
| pgregory | doesn't matter too much, if we lose him, we have another couple waiting in the wings, just hope that they (Google) stick to the allocation count, and just bump one up if we lose one. | 07:54 |
| pgregory | Pseudonym: do you have any experience with ICE? | 07:56 |
| pgregory | http://www.zeroc.com/ | 07:57 |
| Pseudonym | Right. | 08:05 |
| Pseudonym | Uhm... | 08:05 |
| Pseudonym | ICE. | 08:05 |
| Pseudonym | Hang on. | 08:05 |
| Pseudonym | Nope, haven't seen it. | 08:06 |
| Pseudonym | Looks interesting, though. | 08:06 |
| pgregory | I'm looking at it as a possible candidate for the connection mechanism to the planned new advanced framebuffer. | 08:06 |
| Pseudonym | Right. | 08:06 |
| pgregory | it looks a lot simpler than working with SOAP or CORBA, it's cross platform, and supports many different languages. | 08:07 |
| pgregory | I thought if we produced a lightweight display driver that communicates via ICE, then should anyone wish to they can produce an FB in Python, Java, C# etc. | 08:07 |
| Pseudonym | Yes. | 08:08 |
| Pseudonym | It'd also be interesting to provide DSO shadeops using something like this. | 08:08 |
| pgregory | if it works as well as advertised, it has a lot of potential uses, network/cluster based rendering for one. | 08:09 |
| Pseudonym | Yes. | 08:09 |
| Pseudonym | Although... | 08:09 |
| Pseudonym | Bandwidth could be a problem. | 08:09 |
| Pseudonym | I don't think you'd want to shift geometry over this kind of connection. | 08:09 |
| pgregory | depends on what gets transferred | 08:10 |
| Pseudonym | OTOH, once that was done, you could probably move rays across this, like Kiluea. | 08:10 |
| Pseudonym | Kilauea | 08:10 |
| pgregory | yeah | 08:10 |
| Pseudonym | Kilauea uses MPI, by the look of ti. | 08:13 |
| Pseudonym | Ice looks very good. | 08:13 |
| pgregory | MPI? | 08:13 |
| Pseudonym | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_Passing_Interface | 08:13 |
| pgregory | looks complicated | 08:15 |
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| Pseudonym | Right. | 08:17 |
| Pseudonym | Too complicated for display drivers. | 08:17 |
| Pseudonym | But probably necessary for something like Kilauea. | 08:17 |
| pgregory | the main thing I like about Ice is the simplicity | 08:18 |
| Pseudonym | Yeah. | 08:18 |
| Pseudonym | And that it's a first-class citizen on pretty much all the languages ported. | 08:18 |
| pgregory | but that could be misleading, I'll only know when I give it a go. | 08:18 |
| Pseudonym | Better head off. | 08:34 |
| Pseudonym | Night. | 08:34 |
| pgregory | night | 08:34 |
| Pseudonym | Or have a good day, as the case may be. | 08:34 |
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| renderguy | Morning all. | 10:00 |
| tcolgate | mornin' all | 11:27 |
| pgregory | hi tcolgate | 11:28 |
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| tcolgate | oops, accid3enttally deelteed #aqsis ffrom my clientt. | 11:31 |
| * tcolgate thinks someone from #kde woke up with a horse head inn hsi bed today.... and Paul has blood on his hands. | 11:33 | |
| renderguy | tcolgate: I though something similar, but apparently no signs of aggression were made. ;-) | 11:34 |
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| pgregory | hi Tobi | 11:53 |
| *** cgTobi sets mode: +vvvv AlexK render renderguy scorp007 | 11:53 | |
| *** cgTobi sets mode: +vv tcolgate |rt|_ | 11:53 | |
| cgTobi | morning all | 11:53 |
| cgTobi | hi Paul | 11:53 |
| tcolgate | Hi Tobi | 11:54 |
| cgTobi | Hi Minty | 11:55 |
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| pgregory | hi Michel | 12:26 |
| *** pgregory sets mode: +v Joron | 12:26 | |
| Joron | Hello Paul; | 12:30 |
| Joron | Any news of SOC students ? | 12:34 |
| pgregory | Joron: nothing final until 5pm PST | 12:36 |
| * pgregory is just looking at the node stuff in Blender, tres cool. | 12:44 | |
| scorp007 | the existing node stuff, or something yet to be implemented? | 12:45 |
| Joron | anywya I got to go to work... beybye | 12:46 |
| Joron | byebye | 12:46 |
| pgregory | scorp007: the existing stuff | 12:46 |
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| scorp007 | ok | 12:47 |
| scorp007 | I just hope they rewrite their GUI code to use proper opengl. | 12:49 |
| scorp007 | and not immediate mode | 12:49 |
| pgregory | why's that? | 12:49 |
| scorp007 | because it's slow | 12:50 |
| scorp007 | it's already proposed under the "interface" section | 12:51 |
| scorp007 | in the list of ideas | 12:51 |
| pgregory | I see | 12:57 |
| pgregory | I still think it's nice. | 12:57 |
| scorp007 | the look of it? Sure | 12:57 |
| pgregory | in fact, it's all looking so nice, I might even take the time to look at the codebase again. | 12:57 |
| pgregory | not just the look, the functionality. | 12:57 |
| scorp007 | I'm not talking about that either | 12:58 |
| scorp007 | I'm referring to its implementation in openGL | 12:58 |
| scorp007 | it's done in an ancient way. | 12:58 |
| pgregory | sure, I was simply commenting on the functionality from a user point of view, it's nice. | 12:58 |
| scorp007 | ok. I haven't *used* it in a while | 12:59 |
| scorp007 | so I haven't had a chance to play around with the node stuff | 12:59 |
| scorp007 | IIRC its all written in C. So I hope you know that :) | 12:59 |
| pgregory | I've delved deep into the guts of Blender a few times in the past. | 13:05 |
| scorp007 | heh, ok | 13:05 |
| pgregory | C is ok, as long as it's well written C | 13:05 |
| tcolgate | scorp007: if it works, and it's alright to use, who cares what interface they implemented it in? | 13:05 |
| ShortWave | hah, well | 13:05 |
| scorp007 | tcolgate, because performance is an issue in professional 3d software? | 13:05 |
| tcolgate | ddd is written using motif, it's ancient, it's still the best damed debugger on the planet. | 13:05 |
| ShortWave | there's a UI rewrite in the works | 13:06 |
| ShortWave | and a rewrite of the event system as well | 13:06 |
| ShortWave | Who do you think has been making a lot of noise for those two things? | 13:06 |
| ShortWave | :) | 13:06 |
| tcolgate | scorp007: If it's slw to preview that is one thing, if widgets are slow'ish to draw and people get offended, then they are just being petulant children. | 13:07 |
| scorp007 | tcolgate, what about the viewports? | 13:07 |
| * ShortWave wrote his widget system for Blender in pure OpenGL without display lists, and that still ran pretty fast. | 13:07 | |
| scorp007 | ShortWave, good job on making the noise then :) | 13:07 |
| tcolgate | People put up with far slower interfaces for decades and did much better work with them than most of the people putting output space ships with blender are doing. | 13:08 |
| scorp007 | tcolgate, the viewports should handly hugely dense meshes, like XSI. For this to happen, you have to make efficient use of GL | 13:08 |
| scorp007 | handle* | 13:08 |
| scorp007 | tcolgate, and comparing a debugger with a 3d modeller is not wise. You don't usually require such interactivity with a debugger. An artist *needs* interactivity. | 13:09 |
| tcolgate | For the last decade I've been getting progressilvey more and more annoyed with new people coming to linux systems that whine about fonts and god knows what else and are willing to dismiss a whole OS 'cos they don't like the font rendering. | 13:09 |
| tcolgate | Most of these people wouldn't know what a computer was if they tripped over one. | 13:09 |
| tcolgate | You were talking about the shading node system though, not the view ports. | 13:10 |
| scorp007 | tcolgate, I'm talking about the *GUI* in general. | 13:10 |
| scorp007 | I haven't even used the shading nodes system | 13:10 |
| pgregory | tcolgate: it's not just shading nodes, I'm playing with the node based compositor at the moment, which is very neat. | 13:11 |
| scorp007 | it looked cool from the screenshots, I'll give you that | 13:11 |
| pgregory | we use Fusion and Shake here, which are pure node based compositors, and cost many thousands of pounds. | 13:11 |
| tcolgate | Well from what I've seen of the blender guiit is pretty effective, even with larger meshes, I can't say about massive meshes, but it looks like it's doing a reasonable job. | 13:11 |
| tcolgate | And I'd still love to know how they achieve thier startup time. | 13:11 |
| pgregory | Now I'm not saying Blender is anywhere near, but the core is pretty competent, if they follow up with a good selection of nodes. | 13:12 |
| scorp007 | Are you guys using shake on OS X or linux? | 13:12 |
| pgregory | and perhaps more importantly (although unfortunately, history suggests less likely), a good API to allow third parties to add new nodes. | 13:12 |
| pgregory | scorp007: linux mostly | 13:13 |
| pgregory | although we're switching to Fusion. | 13:13 |
| scorp007 | pgregory, ah, its a *lot* cheaper on OS x | 13:13 |
| scorp007 | pgregory, ah, ok. That's windows only, isn't it? | 13:13 |
| pgregory | Wine | 13:13 |
| tcolgate | yes, they need to sort thier plugin api out (and prefereably not get stuck in a k3d style rewrite whilst doing it). | 13:13 |
| scorp007 | hmm... I personally wouldn't do that... | 13:13 |
| pgregory | scorp007: works perfectly well | 13:14 |
| tcolgate | pgregory: has the vendor agreed to support you? | 13:14 |
| pgregory | scorp007: and when you don't have a lot of choice, you make decisions that you otherwise might not. | 13:14 |
| pgregory | tcolgate: as far as I know. | 13:14 |
| scorp007 | pgregory, couldn't you 1) use it on windows, or 2) stick with shake? | 13:14 |
| tcolgate | Wine & opengl do seem to be prtty effective, I have to say, I'd just question te support side of things. | 13:14 |
| pgregory | scorp007: shake is no more. | 13:14 |
| scorp007 | true, but it works | 13:15 |
| pgregory | no good if we don't have support | 13:15 |
| tcolgate | support is everything | 13:15 |
| scorp007 | I guess. And Eyeon supports you in using Fusion through wine? | 13:15 |
| pgregory | as I said, I don't know the details, but I think so, yes. | 13:15 |
| tcolgate | Alot of places are doing it. | 13:16 |
| scorp007 | really? interesting | 13:16 |
| scorp007 | there'd be a performance hit, wouldn't there? | 13:16 |
| tcolgate | (using software under wine that is, not Fusion in particlar) | 13:16 |
| tcolgate | Not much, Wine runs alot of games out of the box, including some of the newer directx stuff it seems. | 13:17 |
| scorp007 | especially visible on big, complex comps | 13:17 |
| scorp007 | hmmm | 13:17 |
| scorp007 | how long have you guys been doing this? | 13:17 |
| tcolgate | Some apps have horrendous performance under wine if they end up going via the wine server alot, but those are rare and usually a sign of bad impleentation. | 13:17 |
| scorp007 | (using fusion in wine) | 13:17 |
| scorp007 | I'm concerned about the stability of wine | 13:17 |
| pgregory | scorp007: for quite a while, on some serious projects. | 13:18 |
| scorp007 | ok, I guess you guys will know better | 13:18 |
| tcolgate | Remeber, wine isn't an emulator, so for raw calculation it's no different to running it under windows. | 13:18 |
| scorp007 | but it has to do translation of some sort, doesn't it? All that directX => GL | 13:19 |
| tcolgate | Wine stability varies from app to app really, on the whole, if somewthing runs well then it's stable. | 13:19 |
| tcolgate | Well people are playing plenty f high tech fancy opengl 2 games on it, so I guess they have that part sussed. | 13:19 |
| scorp007 | I guess | 13:20 |
| scorp007 | pgregory, what about Photoshop? | 13:20 |
| scorp007 | do you have any windows boxes at all? | 13:21 |
| cgTobi | Photoshop ran quite well last time I tried. I think it was CS2. | 13:22 |
| scorp007 | on wine? | 13:22 |
| cgTobi | so did Flash. | 13:22 |
| cgTobi | yeah | 13:22 |
| scorp007 | oh ok | 13:22 |
| cgTobi | off to the city :) cya | 13:25 |
| scorp007 | bye | 13:25 |
| tcolgate | Certainly 7 works well on wine | 13:25 |
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| scorp007 | I personally don't see why people go all this way when they can just use the program's native platform to run it... | 13:25 |
| scorp007 | especially when you can dual-boot | 13:26 |
| ShortWave | Well to be honest | 13:27 |
| ShortWave | I like ilnux as much as the next guy... | 13:27 |
| ShortWave | err | 13:27 |
| ShortWave | linux | 13:27 |
| ShortWave | there's just too many apps that simply won't work without a real install of Windows tho | 13:27 |
| scorp007 | I agree | 13:27 |
| scorp007 | at least, as reliably as you'd expect. | 13:28 |
| ShortWave | I'd love to be able to run Autocad & Painter IX under wine. | 13:28 |
| scorp007 | or 3ds max | 13:29 |
| scorp007 | provided it worked as well as on windows. | 13:29 |
| pgregory | scorp007: we are a Linux only shop, we have no (or at least very few) Windows installs. | 13:30 |
| tcolgate | scorp007: Dual booting and VMs have disadvantages, it is useful to be able to use apps in a more seamless fashion. | 13:30 |
| pgregory | scorp007: rebooting each time an artist wants to switch between Maya and Fusion is unreasonable. | 13:31 |
| tcolgate | As for wine in general, it's a life saver for alot of people running legacy apps, it's easier to get old apps running under wine than it is to get them running on modern windows platforms. | 13:31 |
| scorp007 | pgregory, so what do you use to paint textures? | 13:31 |
| pgregory | scorp007: we have a few Mac's | 13:31 |
| scorp007 | pgregory, ah ok | 13:31 |
| scorp007 | BTW - Maya/Fusion -> both run on windows. | 13:31 |
| pgregory | and Photoshop runs fine under Wine too, if I'm not mistaken. | 13:32 |
| pgregory | scorp007: yes, but we're a Linux shop. | 13:32 |
| scorp007 | yep, I see | 13:32 |
| tcolgate | cs2 seems to have problems, earlier version look OK (certainly everything below 7 is a goer). | 13:32 |
| scorp007 | cs2 has problems of its own. | 13:32 |
| scorp007 | its a bloated *****... | 13:32 |
| pgregory | anyway, I think our matte painters use Macs | 13:33 |
| scorp007 | I presume there are no ATI cards in any of the linux workstations, then? | 13:34 |
| pgregory | scorp007: no, all nVidia, thank god. | 13:34 |
| scorp007 | tcolgate, well, I tried running a 'legacy' game today through wine, rather unsuccessfully. | 13:34 |
| pgregory | scorp007: games are a different beast | 13:34 |
| scorp007 | pgregory, lucky | 13:34 |
| pgregory | scorp007: not lucky, careful buying decisions. | 13:35 |
| scorp007 | hehe | 13:35 |
| tcolgate | scorp007: That's not really the market they are aiming at, most older windows games don't make use of a consistant graphic API so YMMV | 13:35 |
| scorp007 | yeah. This was using DirectDraw | 13:36 |
| scorp007 | (Age of Empires 1) | 13:36 |
| tcolgate | Well you''ll stand more luck at tweaking things if it uses DD | 13:36 |
| tcolgate | You probably just need ot twiddle some settings. | 13:36 |
| scorp007 | not hack the source? Among the minor graphics problems, it segfaulted if I exit it in a certain way | 13:37 |
| tcolgate | scorp007: http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?iVersionId=147 | 13:39 |
| scorp007 | I was running AoE 1 | 13:39 |
| scorp007 | I had a look at the page before | 13:40 |
| tcolgate | http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?iVersionId=1007 | 13:40 |
| scorp007 | The rating is "bronze", so I expected problems | 13:40 |
| tcolgate | I like the fact that the app database shows you the relevant bugs, very nice. | 13:41 |
| scorp007 | yep | 13:41 |
| pgregory | TBH: when you think about what it does, it's a pretty amazing piece of kit, despite it's faults. | 13:41 |
| scorp007 | ah, the exact problems I was experiencing | 13:41 |
| scorp007 | it was also a lot laggier than on windows | 13:41 |
| scorp007 | for such a seemingly simple game | 13:42 |
| *** ShortWave is now known as ShortWaveWrk | 13:42 | |
| pgregory | scorp007: I would suspect most of the development effort goes into newer games, and applications, applications specifically. | 13:43 |
| scorp007 | likely | 13:43 |
| scorp007 | I hear the new games run far better | 13:43 |
| pgregory | it's like any OS development, more demand == more effort. | 13:44 |
| scorp007 | right | 13:44 |
| tcolgate | Also, there is a company which offers developement based on voting and suscriptions and the focus for that tends to pushtoward more modern stuff. | 13:45 |
| tcolgate | Though they it does seem well balanced between apps and games. | 13:45 |
| tcolgate | Cool, the chap runnig on Sol10 x86 seems to be doing alright, he has fltk up ad running now too. | 14:02 |
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| pgregory | gotta go, cya later | 15:48 |
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| renderguy | Gotta shoot, laterz. | 17:31 |
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